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This forum is devoted to the Royal Navy during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1793 - 1815).
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Seaman vs mariner
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PMarione
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Seaman vs mariner Reply with quote

Looking at the TNA db of Seamen's Wills referred by Peter in the other part of the forum, my question is what's the difference between a seaman and a mariner?
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Redfish



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Arnhem

Post Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that there is no real difference and that it simply has to do with personal preference. I presume that 'mariner' was, like nowadays, considered to be the more formal or literary word for seaman. That might explain why the word 'seaman' gives far more results that 'mariner'.
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Peter



Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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Location: Gosport, Hampshire

Post Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonjour Patrick,

Is this a puzzle or a trick question?

Does the winner get a box of Belgian choclates and copy of your reprint?


SEAMAN
SEAMAN, (homme de mer, Fr.) a mariner or person trained in the exercise of fixing the machinery of a ship, and applying it to the purposes of navigation.
The principal articles required in a common sailor to intitle him to the full wages, are, that he can steer, found, and manage the sails, by extending, reefing, and furling them, as occasion requires. When he is expert at these exercises, his skill in all other matters relative to his employment is taken for granted.

From Falconer's Dictionary.
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, just a genuine question and no chocolates.
I am just puzzled why some are accounted as seamen and others as mariners.
I was thinking that mariner referred to a seaman in the merchant navy but here they are all RN or is it referring to petty officers?

@+P
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Peter



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Post Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Seaman vs Mariner Reply with quote

Men that are below the rank of officer are normally referred to as seaman.

Mariner is normally used for the merchant marine.

i.e., Master mariner, very experienced merchant seaman, normally a captain having passed all command examinations.
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was my idea so maybe the wills of "mariners" refer to petty officers or pressed men from the merchant navy.

The translation of Falconer is wrong: seaman translates "homme de mer" litteraly but is never used as such. In French we say "marin" (same origin as mariner) for below the deck people. "Homme de mer" is a little pedantic and can be used for anybody working at sea from captain to rating but you'll never say "Dupont, homme de mer à bord du Soleil Royal" but "marin". Thence my question.

@+P
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Peter



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Seaman vs Mariner Reply with quote

To continue the discussion:

The Sailor's Word-book by Admiral W H Smyth, reprint from 1842?, Conway 2005.
One man's thoughts.

Seaman. This is a term seldom bestowed among seafaring men upon their associates, unless they are known to be pre-eminent in every duty of the thorough-paced tar; one who never issues a command which he is not competent to execute himself, and is deemed an authority on every matter relating to sea-craft. [He then goes on to discuss the able seaman].

Mariner. One who obtains his living on the sea, in whatever rank. But with our old voyagers mariners were able seaman, and sailors only ordinary seaman. Thus Middleton's ship sailed from Bantam in 1605, leaving 18 men behind, "of whom 5 were mariners, and 13 sailors."
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