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Captain John CONN, Dreadnought 98; the WILLCOCKS connection
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Martinwill2



Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Utah

Post Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Captain John CONN, Dreadnought 98; the WILLCOCKS connection Reply with quote

JOHN CONN was christened at Stoke Damerel, Devon, on 5 Aug 1764, s/o John CONN and Ann Frances COOPER. He was the first of six children. His younger siblings, also christened at Stoke Damerel, were
Ann Frances CONN, 6 Jul 1766
Robert CONN, 25 Mar 1768
William Oakley CONN, 5 Oct 1770
Charles Cooper CONN, 14 Dec 1773
Mary Ann CONN, 27 Nov 1776.

After Mary Ann CONN was born, or possibly in childbirth, though I have not yet found any death record, Ann Frances CONN, the mother, may have died. There is a marriage of John CONN and Ann CATTERALL in St. Peter, Church Street, Liverpoool, on 29 Jan 1782. The signature of John CONN (father of the captain) is on the marriage register entry, however, it has not been authenticated as I have found no other documents bearing his signature so far. At any rate, John and Ann settled in Antony, Cornwall, where two more children were christened:
Peggy CONN, 3 Jun 1782
Harriet CONN, 26 Dec 1784
and it is possible that a Mary CONN who married James DOWNAY at Maker, Cornwall, on 12 Jun 1809 was also a child of this family, yet to be proven.

Harriet CONN married James TAYLOR on 20 Nov 1806 in Stoke Damerel, Devon, and had four children, Jane TAYLOR (b. 8 Feb 1809), John TAYLOR (b. 2 Mar 1819), Henry Conn TAYLOR (b. 10 Jul 1822), and Ann Frances TAYLOR (b. 29 Oct 1825), all christened at Granby Or Mount Street Chapel-Independent, Devonport, Devon. In the same time frame, Harriet TAYLOR was b. 27 Apr 1817 and chr. at the same church on 9 May 1819, d/o George TAYLOR and Mary Luckham COLLINGS. Why this is relevant I will explain later. George and James I believe to have been closely related.

(Capt.) John CONN joined the Royal Navy aboard his father's ship H.M.S. Weazle in Feb 1778 as a 13 year old volunteer. His father was a gunner and warrant officer on that ship (source: Chris Radmore, quoting "The Trafalgar Captains: Their Lives and Memorials" by Colin White and the 1805 Club.) Another source, "The Trafalgar Roll" by Col. William Holden MacKenzie, states on page 69: "Captain John Conn, a member of the Irish family of that name at Mount Ida, Waterford, was born in Ireland in 1764, and entered the service in 1778. ... Commanded the Dreadnought, 98 [guns], in the battle of Trafalgar, 1805, when the Spanish 74, San Juan, struck to her. Received a gold medal, and a sword of honour from the Patriotic Fund. When in command of the Swiftsure, was drowned off the Bermudas, in 1810. He was a cousin, by marriage, to Lord Nelson, having married a daughter of Rev. Isaac Nelson, Rector of Meldon and Vicar of Mitford."

Whether or not John CONN was actually a member of the Mount Ida family, this connection is also reported in at least two editions of Burke's Landed Gentry. However, no mention was made in this book of his connection to Devon. In addition, Mount Ida did not exist at the time of his birth. There was a John CONN of about the right age to be the captain's father christened at nearby Kill St. Nicholas on 5 Dec 1739, parents William CONN and Mary (surname not yet found.) If this man was John's father or a close relative, the lineage may be traced from him through his marriage to Mary UNDERWOOD, their seventh child Benjamin CONN, who became Pilot Master, Passage, Waterford, and his son John Lambly CONN, who built the house at Mount Ida to which this extract refers. I have found some information about a William CONN, gunner on H.M.S. Otter, who met an untimely death and whose unnamed widow petitioned the Navy for release of his assets in 1753 (Navy Board: Out-letters ADM 354/147/236)

(Capt.) John CONN married Margaret NELSON on 19 Jan 1792 at Stoke Damerel, Devon. Margaret was chr. 16 Feb 1767 at Mitford, Northumberland, where her father, The Rev. Isaac NELSON was the Vicar, and was also Rector of nearby Meldon. Isaac was believed to be the son of Thomas NELSON and Ann PATTINSON, of Penrith, Cumberland, as one of Isaac's children was John Pattinson NELSON, chr. 1 Oct 1763, bu. 17 Oct 1763 also at Mitford. Isaac's first marriage to Isabel or Isabella JOHNSON was apparently childless, and she died and was buried 3 Oct 1761 in Mitford. His second marriage to Anne FORSTER on 16 Apr 1762 at Hartburn, Northumberland, produced eight children, Margaret being the fifth. Isaac NELSON died 20 Mar 1772, having slipped on the stepping stones above the church bridge in Mitford, and was drowned. He was buried at Mitford on 22 Mar 1772. No connection has been found between Isaac and Lord NELSON, whose parents, The Rev. Edmund NELSON and Catharine SUCKLING, were from East Anglia.

Clearly, Margaret was living in Antony, Cornwall at the time of her marriage to John CONN, and her father had been dead for nearly twenty years.

Though not apparently a close cousin of Lord Nelson, Capt. CONN was a "protege of Lord Nelson" (Chris Radmore, Colin White, etc.) and was certainly held in high esteem by the great Admiral.

John and Margaret had one son, Henry CONN, b. abt. 1793-4 in Plymouth. His age is given as 17 on the Muster Book of the Dreadnought, dated Oct-Dec 1805, where he came aboard after the Battle of Trafalgar. He was not at Trafalgar, but on another Navy ship at that time, but he was taken aboard his father's ship at the age of 9 in 1802, and transferred to the Dreadnought in November, 1805. In 1809, Henry became a Lieut. and was later that year assigned to H.M.S. Junon, the first time he had been away from his father for an extended period. In Dec 1809, Junon was attacked by four French ships, and after a fierce battle the men were captured and the ship was burned and scuttled by the French. Henry was taken to France and imprisoned there until 6 Oct 1812, acording to O'Byrne's Naval History of 1849 (page 222.)

It is not clear when his father learned of his imprisonment, but John CONN was aboard H.M.S. Swiftsure, his last command, at the time. Henry had also been on Swiftsure until at least May 1809 when the was advanced to Lieutenant. News did not travel fast in those days, and I suspect that his father received the news in Bermuda some time in late April 1810. Partly because there is a codicil in his will in January of 1810, written aboard Swiftsure, which gives no indication that his father knew Henry was in French custody. The official story goes that on May 4, 1810, Swiftsure was chasing a Spanish ship off the Bermudas and Captain John CONN "fell off the ship and was drowned." There is another story that states "while in command of the Swiftsure he jumped overboard in a fit of temporary derangement, on 4 May 1810, age 45, and was drowned off Bermuda."

I can only imagine that the discovery that his only son Henry was imprisoned in France and possibly in imminent danger of execution would have been the trigger for his "temporary derangement" and could certainly have led to accidental death by a slip of attention. Otherwise, I think that a Captain of nine years would have not put himself in a position where he could "fall off" his ship, endangering the lives of all his men. (Obviously an opinion, and stated as such.)

Captain Conn's will was proved on 12 Jun 1811, at London, in the presence of Margaret, his widow, and John Hinxman, his agent (who also wrote the account about Henry CONN in O'Byrne's.) He left the bulk of his estate to Henry, in care of Margaret until Henry was of age, and an allowance to his widowed oldest sister (Ann Frances HENDERSON - she had married Alexander HENDERSON 21 Jan 1789 at Antony, Cornwall), and a smaller annuity to each of his (unnamed) younger sisters. These would have included Mary Ann (CONN) WILLCOCKS, Peggy CONN and Harriet CONN.

At the time of the will's proving, Henry CONN still was imprisoned in France. I do not know for sure how John's minor assets were distributed, but his Patriotic Fund Sword went to his descendants and was sold by Bonhams in 2005 for GBP 134.400. The story in our family is that his telescope came down as a family heirloom, which I now own.

Margaret (NELSON) CONN died in Pydar street, Truro, Cornwall, at the home of Henry CONN, on 15 Aug 1836, as reported in the West Briton Advertiser of 19 Aug 1836, which also mentions John CONN's untimely death on 4 May 1810.

As mentioned above, Mary Ann CONN married Robert WILLCOCKS on 28 Dec 1797 at St. Mary's Portsea, Hampshire. Robert was the third child and second son of Robert WILLCOCKS and Hannah HEARLE, who married at Stoke Damerel, Devon, on 5 Feb 1762 and had five children, all chr. at Stoke Damerel:
Richard WILCOCKS, 8 Jan 1763
Ann Bishop WILCOCKS, 5 Apr 1764
Robert WILLCOCKS, 24 Jul 1765
Hannah Hearle WILCOCKS, 6 Oct 1767
Jane WILCOCKS, 18 Dec 1769.

Richard worked in the R.N. Dockyard at Devonport between the ages of 12 and 16 (1775-1779) (Plymouth Artificers 1779 on Genuki, which I helped transcribe from the original records.) He got into bad company and in 1786 was tried at Exeter for assault with intent to rob (the previous October) in the Epiphany Quarter Sessions and sentenced to transportation to Australia for seven years. He was among the First Fleet convicts arriving in January 1788 at Port Jackson, but died in December 1788 and was buried at Sydney.

Ann married William BRIGHT at age 22 on 5 Apr 1786, and had two children, William and Joseph. I have not found out any more about them.

Robert, as mentioned above, married Mary Ann CONN. Their children, all born in Portsea, Hampshire were:
Mary Ann WILLCOCKS (b. 30 Nov 1800, d. Mar Qtr 1882, never married)
William WILLCOCKS (b. 15 Dec 1802, m. 1 Jan 1825, d. Dec Qtr 1880)
Samuel WILLCOCKS (chr. 4 Jan 1807, m. 7 Jun 1835, d. Dec Qtr 1847)
John Nelson Conn WILLCOCKS (b. 18 Jan 1810, m. 29 Sep 1833, d. Jan 1839)
Elizabeth WILLCOCKS (b. 4 Apr 1815, m. Mar Qtr 1852, d. not yet found)

William was my direct ancestor, and became Master Blacksmith at Woolwich Dockyard, retired after 53 years of service in early 1880, and died in late 1880. He married Elizabeth YOUNG on 1 Jan 1825, and had nine children. The fifth, Samuel WILLCOCKS. had a career in the dockyards and later at the Admiralty, and on 21 Oct 1898 laid a wreath at Trafalgar Square in honour of his great-uncle Captain John Conn of H.M.S. Dreadnought, reported in The Times the following day. On 21 Oct 1905, the Trafalgar Centenary, he laid a floral anchor at Trafalgar Square, which was also reported in The Times. I have kept up this tradition by having a wreath laid by a Navy Commander at the T200 celebration on 23 Oct 2005, in honour of Captain John Conn, the men of Dreadnought, and of Captain Henry CONN.

These two newspaper accounts also confirm the relationship between the CONN and WILLCOCKS families.

Elizabeth WILLCOCKS, the fifth and youngest child of Robert WILLCOCKS and Mary Ann (CONN) WILLCOCKS, married Mr. Richard WATERMAN at St. Pancras, London, in the March quarter of 1852. She was a first cousin of Henry CONN, whose death on 4 Mar 1860 at Pimlico was reported in The Times of 14 Mar 1860, citing Henry's relationships including the statement "and first cousin of Mrs. Richd. Waterman, of Stratford-place, N.W."

The three Times reports mentioned above confirm that John CONN was indeed the one baptised at Stoke Damerel, not the John CONN b. 21 Aug 1764, chr. 26 Aug 1764 in Campbelltown Argyll, Scotland, formerly put forward by Patrick Marione as a possible candidate. There is no doubt of his close connection to my family as my fourth great-uncle, and therefore this makes it highly likely that the telescope passed down as a family heirloom was in fact his. After Trafalgar, John CONN was probably the second most celebrated captain of the fleet, and there are several other members of the extended family named after him. I have mentioned John Nelson Conn WILLCOCKS above, but in the same period and into the 1840's there was also Mary Ann Conn WILLCOCKS, a daughter of the first Samuel WILLCOCKS and Maria OSBORNE, Henry Conn TAYLOR, and various children carrying the name of his mother, Ann Frances.

John Nelson Conn WILLCOCKS first married Ann RICHARDSON in Portsmouth, Hampshire, on 29 Sep 1833. Then, on 15 Feb 1837, he married Harriet TAYLOR (d/o George and Mary) at Stoke Damerel, Devon. His son by Harriet was born in 1838 and chr. at Stoke Damerel on 8 Aug 1838, where the baptism register records the father as a smith, of Portsmouth - definitely identifying the same man. On January 26, 1839, he was buried at St. Thomas, Portsmouth, age 29, and apparently a daughter Eliza Jane, age 1 month was buried the same day, from the same address, in the very next register entry. It thus appears that John's first and second wives had children within a very few months of each other, and suggests that the 1837 marriage was bigamous. I had to find out why John would have married Harriet - but perhaps he knew Harriet growing up as she was a close relative, possibly a second cousin, and perhaps it was a shotgun wedding - although John Robert James WILLCOCKS was born some 18 months after the marriage. John WILLCOCKS appears age 3 in the 1841 census living in the home of James TAYLOR and three of his grown children. In 1841 Harriet WILLCOCKS is at the DOIDGE residence nearby in Devonport, so presumably she needed a job to support her son. In the 1851 census John is 12, a scholar. Meanwhile, in Portsmouth, a second John Nelson Conn WILLCOCKS was born in 1842 and died, nearly3 years old, in 1844. He was buried at St. Mary's Portsea.

Turning to the telescope, it was made by Harris & Co., London, and engraved "Day or Night." Typical of its time as a first quality telescope, it is just over 12" long fully closed, 34" fully open, nearly 2-1/2" outside diameter and weighs in at 2lb 8oz. The objective lens is about 1-1/2" diameter, but the extendable sunshade (which can be removed for night vision) cuts the aperture to about 1-1/8". The telescope is made of brass, with a mahogany barrel for its outermost section. A similar telescope made in the first decade of the 19th century was by Dollond, and had a 1.6" objective lens, opening to 29".

The Harris family was involved in instrument making for many decades. Although the "Harris & Co." mark appears in 1848, there were other marks much earlier than that - a "Harris & Co." mark in 1814 from Swansea on an octant being one. H. Harris and son were making telescopes in 1811 at 50 High Holborn, London, an address that appears very frequently over an extended period. William Harris and Son are listed as telescope makers at this address in 1812, and finally:

Harris, T. and Son, 1806-1846, were at numerous London addresses including 50 Holborn, 140 Fleet Street, 20 Duke Street, 30 Hyde Street, 52 Great Russell St., 144a Oxford Street, and were listed as "Opticians and Globe Makers to the King"; "Opticians to the Royal Family"; "Opticians to H.R.H. the Duke of Kent."

There was also a Daniel Harris operating 1736-1775 in Christ Church, London, so it is clear that this family was present for well over 100 years.

My belief is that John Conn was in the market for a new and better telescope after Trafalgar and before his next and final command, Swiftsure. This would almost certainly place the purchase of a fine telescope in 1806, and even though Dollond was a well-known and well-respected telescope maker, the fact that Thomas Harris had several Royal appointments would have probably made him the leading telescope maker of that time, and the most likely to have made John CONN's last telescope. It would be extremely interesting to find any records of such a purchase in this time frame, but I doubt they survive.

Incidentally, another Harris & Co. telescope that is almost a twin of mine has recently turned up in an auction in Taunton, Devon, without any known provenance.

One final note. If John CONN senior, the gunner on Weazle, was from Ireland, as the Trafalgar Roll suggests, and was in fact the one christened in Kill St. Nicholas, he had a family in that town as well. He married Mary UNDERWOOD, and had nine children christened there between 1762 and 1782, contemporaneous with the Stoke Damerel family. The seventh was Benjamin CONN, b. 12 Oct 1775, was the father of John Lambly CONN, who as I mentioned built Mount Ida. The house stood until the mid 1970's when it was ravaged by fire. The spacing between the children in Waterford and those in Devon and Cornwall is such that it could well have been possible for him to have been the patriarch of both families, if he had occasion to travel frequently between these locations.

There is a story in our family that John CONN was a leader of the press gangs - whether the father or son I do not know, as I do not believe my father knew. If it was the father, there was a lot of recruiting going on in southern Ireland, and Waterford would have been under the aegis of one Capt. E. J. Moriarty. There would have also been plenty of opportunity for a young warrant officer to better himself by being part of a press gang, and thus gaining prize money for his recruitments, and it would also have provided an opportunity to travel frequently between Ireland and the Navy base in Devonport. So although all this is very speculative, it does appear to be possible, and to provide an explanation for the press gang story.

It might also account for the absence of a marriage record in Stoke Damerel for the parents of Capt. John CONN. There is no record to be found in the entire Plymouth area, nor for that matter in the IGI nationwide. Since my WILLCOCKS line has a very easily found marriage record at Stoke Damerel, which should be contemporaneous with that of John CONN's parents, and all of his siblings' baptisms, it is very strange that the marriage record is missing - unless the marriage was done on a ship at sea or a place where the possibility that it was bigamous could be concealed. There is no evidence in Captain John CONN's will that he knew anything about the Irish family, if in fact his father did also father the Waterford family.

But of course there is a possibility that there were two separate John CONNs who fathered these families, and I have no evidence for the 1839 John CONN as the father of the Devon family, other than the report in The Trafalgar Roll and its probable source, Burke's Landed Gentry.

If anyone else has better information, or something I have not mentioned here, I would be glad to hear from other Navy researchers and historians, and update this article accordingly.
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin,

That's great genuine research, almost a textbook example.
I would like to see more like this on the forum.

@+P
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Martinwill2



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Sources for John CONN Reply with quote

1st paragraph: Baptisms listed are extracted records in the IGI. No marriage has been located for John CONN (sr.) and Ann COOPER - I have searched the IGI, Devon Family History Society's "Deanery of the Three Towns" CD, and a list of CONN records from the DFHS, to no avail. My assumption is that the bride was Ann COOPER, chr. 19 Jul 1747 at Stoke Damerel, d/o Daniel COOPER and Elizabeth KENT, who were married on 12 Jul 1745 at Stoke Damerel. (These are also IGI extracted records.) The clue is that she had an older brother Charles COOPER chr. 5 Jun 1746 at Stoke Damerel, and her fifth child was named Charles Cooper CONN, an obvious reference to his uncle.

2nd paragraph: The IGI also contains an extracted record for the marriage of John CONN (sr.) and Ann CATTERALL. I have also obtained a copy of the parish register entry, which includes John CONN's signature, and records that Ann was a minor. John seems to have had a predilection for young brides! The Mary CONN marriage information was sent by the OPC for Maker, Cornwall, from the parish records. Peggy and Harriet's baptisms are also IGI extracted records, but I have not found a baptism for Mary.

3rd paragraph: The TAYLOR family records are mainly extracted IGI records, the marriage also appears in the DFHS CD, and so does the marriage of George TAYLOR and Mary Luckham COLLINGS, along with her burial record. My presumption of a relationship between George and James is based on the fact that all their children were baptised at Granby or Mount St. Independent, and that John Robert James WILLCOCKS, the son of Harriet TAYLOR and John Nelson Conn WILLCOCKS, was in the home of James TAYLOR, with Jane, John, and Henry Conn TAYLOR, in the 1841 census. No relationships were stated in that census.

4th paragraph sources were stated.

5th paragraph: IGI extracted records have baptisms for John CONN and Joseph CONN, both on 5 Dec 1739, and two sisters Mary and Susannah chr. 7 Oct 1736. Marriages are also present for some of these. The marriage to Mary UNDERWOOD is reported in Burke's Landed Gentry of 1863 (see Google books) page 279. However, the author did not know that Benjamin CONN was the second and oldest surviving son of the couple, and that the marriage must have occurred much earlier than is stated, "about 1774" as the Kill St Nicholas baptisms from the IGI show the first child as Barbara CONN chr. 26 Feb 1764. Burke's fails to mention any other children than Benjamin. Benjamin and his son John Lambly CONN's baptisms are also in the IGI, and both are mentioned in numerous online trade directories from 1824 onwards. The information about their building of Mount Ida came from a gentleman who is a direct descendant of a coachman who was employed there at the time of John Lambly CONN and his nephew who worked there in the time of H. H. Phillips-Conn (Burke's 1899 edition.)

6th paragraph: The marriage of John CONN (capt.) and Margaret NELSON is in the IGI extracted records and also the DFHS CD. The NELSON records are extracted from the IGI, and are borne out by accounts in other documents related to Isaac NELSON, including "Mitford 2000" extracts sent to me by another researcher. The story that Isaac was Horatio's uncle is widespread, but for that to be true is difficult to believe. Lord Nelson's lineage is in a current biography and shows three generations of his ancestry, which is also confirmed by IGI extracted baptism and marriage records. There is some evidence that the connection may occur earlier in Penrith, Cumberland, but no definite link has been found. This would, if confirmed, make Lord Nelson a distant cousin (at least a 3rd or 4th cousin) to Margaret.

7th paragraph: I believe I obtained the information about Margaret's abode at the time of marriage from the OPC for Stoke Damerel.

8th paragraph:source stated.

9th paragraph: Page 222-223 of O'Byrne's 1849 Naval History sent by another researcher. Muster Book of the Dreadnought obtained from The National Archives (TNA).

10th paragraph: Personal opinion based on John CONN's will (from TNA), Chris Radmore's extract from Colin White's book cited above, and a report from another researcher "Mike" of Waterlooville, who sent me the other story about CONN's death in February 2004.

11th paragraph: John CONN's will (from TNA). The fact that he mentioned Ann's "younger sisters" implies that the Antony family was known to him, and the Irish family where he would have older half-sisters was not.

12th paragraph: O'Byrne's 1849, a report in "Collectors News" of the Bonhams auction, also Bonham's web site, and information from my father.

13th paragraph: Source stated.

14th paragraph: IGI Extracted baptisms and marriage from Stoke Damerel, confirmed by my brother's researching the actual parish records, and by Linda & Tony Knight's independent research and transcriptions of the parish records. A Jane WILLCOCKS burial was also found at St. Mary's Portsea - this may be the youngest daughter of Robert and Mary Ann.

15th paragraph: Plymouth Artificers, original records photographed with permission from TNA by Brian Randell. Quarter sessions QS 32/73 - Epiphany1786 for Exteter, on Genuki. 'The Last Farewell; Devon Convicts transported to Australia 1782-1821' by Jack Walton. Australia NSW BDM No. 14 Vol. 4 Richard WILCOX Dec 16 1788.St. Philip Sydney.

16th paragraph: IGI extracted records.

17th paragraph: IGI extracted records, confirmed by my brother's examination of the actual parish records in 1997. Robert Willcocks was a ropemaker in the Portsmouth dockyard.

18th paragraph: Occupation from an account by Henry William Squire Willcocks, my great-uncle, in about 1915. The Times, 22 Oct 1898; The Times, 23 Oct 1905; Personal correspondence with The British Legion.

19th paragraph: Opinion stated.

20th paragraph: Marriage record, GRO; The Times, 14 Mar 1860.

21st paragraph: IGI extracted records, family information, opinions based on above.

22nd paragraph: Parish records and extracted IGI records. 1841 census and 1851 census images, FreeBMD for the second John Nelson Conn WILLCOCKS records. The burial was on 13 Nov 1844 at St. Mary's Portsea.

23rd paragraph: Dollond telescope description and photo found on a website about antique telescopes. Harris & Co telescope information from the telescope itself.

24th-26th paragraphs: Another web site gave detailed history of Harris optical instruments. http://www.adlerplanetarium.org/history/websters/h.htm

27th paragraph: opinion.

28th paragraph: The twin was reported to me recently and the owner has exchanged information and photos.

29th paragraph: Burke's Landed Gentry, 1863 and 1899; IGI extracted records; researcher in Waterford area. Opiniions stated.

30th-32nd paragraphs: Family history; email from another researcher regarding press gangs in southern Ireland; opinions stated.

Names of private researchers etc. withheld to protect their privacy.
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tonybb



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, I find your research fascinating, especially because there are some parallels with my research into my Trafalgar Captain ancestor, Charles Mansfield. Mansfield was also born in Stoke Damerel (in 1760). There were also family connections with the Royal Dockyards, his father Samuel being Master Caulker at Plymouth by the time he was born, and two of his brothers became shipwrights. His eldest brother moved to Sheerness and eventually became Master Boatbuilder there, while another brother, named Samuel after his father, remained at Plymouth and is listed in Plymouth Artificers 1779 which you worked on. Like you, I am having difficulty in tracing Mansfield's father's origin. Neither Conn nor Mansfield (who died in 1813) lived long enough to make it high enough up the Navy list to be made Admiral, and therefore they seem to have quickly sunk into obscurity after their deaths. (Mansfield reached number two in the Captains list and would have been promoted Admiral if he had lived just 6 monhs longer.) There is more info on Mansfield on my website at: http://www.minotaur.org/captain-mansfield.htm if you are interested.

I found the IGI a very valuable resource, but also a very dangerous one, and because of the false trails it threw up, I was unable to rely on the information until I could verify it from other sources. In my case the IGI showed an old Mansfield family in Devon (with some of the right Christain names) but who eventually proved to be entirely unconnected. It also showed other Mansfields in Stoke Damerel from around 1800, some with exactly the same names but who again proved unconnected. I was very fortunate in that the wills of Mansfield's parents and several brothers and sisters very clearly identified the various family members.

You said that you were surprised that you couldn't find a marriage record for Captain John Conn's parents. I don't think that is necessarily surprising. As no doubt you have found, the IGI coverage is very far from complete, and even for parishes like Stoke Damerel where the coverage seems good, I am sure some of the original records will have been too faint to be read, there may have been pages or volumes missing, and of course there are bound to have been transcription errors. I have failed to find a baptism record for one of Mansfield's brothers, but there is no doubt of his existence from other records. As an example of the incompleteness of the IGI records, I did a search for baptism/birth records for John Conn in England for 1780 +/- 20 years, and only four individuals show up, and yet in the 1841 census, seven John Conn's were still alive who had been born between 1760 and 1800. (Both of these were for England only, and omit Scottish and Irish John Conn's.)

I am also a little puzzled as to why you think that Captain John Conn's mother, Anne Frances, died, and that his father married Ann Catterall in Liverpool? Is there any reason to suppose that the Liverpool marriage is the same John Conn? Isn't it likely that the Ann who is the mother of Peggy and Harriet is the same Ann Frances that was Captain John Conn's mother?

On the father's origin, it might be worth checking the ship's muster for the Weazle, as it may show the father's age and place of birth, although I think that information was normally omitted for warrant officers.

It looks as though Conn's and Mansfield's paths may have crossed at various times apart from Trafalgar. John Conn was a midshipman in the Arrogant at the battle of the Saintes in 1782 when Mansfield was a lieutenant in the frigate La Fortunée, also part of Rodney's fleet. In 1794 they were both serving in Howe's Channel fleet, Mansfield a commander, and Conn a lieutenant. However, I am afraid I don't have any specific information on Conn other than what is in Colin White's "Trafalgar Captains" and Mackenzie's "Trafalgar Roll".

Good luck with the hunt for further info.
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chasbaz



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Post Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: TNA naval research Reply with quote

Martin,
I too am impressed by your work and the thoroughness of your research.

I am presuming a bit here, but I wonder if you have any time to do any work for me at the TNA. I am in Canada and need someone to go to the TNA and take digital copies of relevant ADM documents. I would of course pay all necessary fees and costs. It seems to me that having someone do it is so much better than trying to use the various remote services.

If you or anyone else is prepared to help please let me know.
I have the basic information about ships served on and commanders, dates etc, so would need ships logs, muster rolls and other relevant documents to flesh out the story. Some information I have already put in a posting on this board (page 2) entitled 'Captain Joseph William Bazalgette RN'.

Thanks,
Charles
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Martinwill2



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Post Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:37 pm    Post subject: Capt. John CONN research Reply with quote

Hi Charles:

I regret that I am no closer to TNA than you! I live in Utah.

Many of the ADM documents are available through TNA's online services. I bought the Muster Book of H.M.S. Dreadnought that way last year, and also the wills of John CONN and his daughter Ann Frances (CONN) HENDERSON. The wills are very inexpensive at GBP 3.50 but the muster book cost a good deal more, as it was copied on A3 paper and mailed.

As for making digital copies, again I don't think TNA is set up to do that, other than the odds and ends like WW1 Medal Cards and Wills.

Thank you for your kind comments about my research.

Regards
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Martinwill2



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Post Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tony:

I think I will go for the Weazle Muster Rolls as they would likely at least contain the names of both father and son. Of course, the father should also be a John CONN. On the Dreadnought side, as well as Capt. John CONN's signatures in many places, there are signatures by other key officers, so I may strike lucky and find one for John CONN sr.

While nothing is certain, my reasoning for the possible remarriage of John sr. is the six year gap between children, and the move to Antony, plus the omission of Ann Frances (COOPER) CONN's middle name. As you suggested, there may be other explanations. If the theory that John sr. was the Irishman is true, the Irish family shows no sign of a gap in children between 1776 and 1782, which would be likely if he was occupied by the war during those years.

What would help is a burial record, though the lack of one does not prove or disprove my suggestion. The DFHS disk, and all other sources I have researched, is limited to burials after 1813. I have recently seen explanations of this on other forums so it is unlikely to change unless a serious transcription effort occurs. The same is true of pre-1813 baptisms, though the IGI transcriptions certainly provide at least some coverage of this information. The marriage record would also be pre-1754, and missing for the same reason, although again IGI does provide some earlier marriage transcriptions, especially from Stoke Damerel. The IGI is generally accurate for extracted records, though patron submissions are often way off the mark, and seriously unreliable in most cases.

Of course, neither Capt. John Conn (d. 1810) nor his wife Margaret (d. 1836) would appear in the 1841 census. But Henry does, along with his second wife and several other relatives and children.

Your Mansfield ancestors may have at some point crossed paths with Samuel WILLCOCKS (b. 1832), who was stationed at Sheerness in the 1860's before getting an Admiralty post in the early 1870's.

Thank you for your kind and helpful comments.

Regards
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chasbaz



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Post Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Research Reply with quote

Martin,

Many thanks for your reply. It is interesting that you were able to do all this remotely. Since coming to Canada I have managed to do a lot of research remotely as well. I have used the TNA gold service (£8.50 for 10 pages) and find it very satisfactory. It's a bit cumbersome when you want a lot of pages, as I now do. Someone could copy a great deal with a digital camera for very little cost. Tell me, about how many pages are there in a muster roll? I am assuming that these were taken weekly, so would not vary greatly from week to week?

Best wishes,
Charles
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience, muster books are quite thick books and you need A3 at least to take a page.
As you assume musters were taken weekly but a page covers 2 months (there is 8 columns on the right). I don't know how many months were included in 1 book.
So maybe you'll have to check more than 1 book.

Here is an example of a page (Bellerophon at the Nile) http://www.creativem.com/ftp/incoming/Muster_Book_Bellerophon.pdf

My opinion is that if you are only checking for an particular info, use the help of a researcher like Alex said earlier in another topic (Achille): he will be able to find the relevant pages and make a copy for you.

If you are looking for a lot of data like to reconstruct a complete career etc., the cost of travel (even from abroad) will be quickly repaid because if you plan well your journey you can make more than 1,000 pages in a day.
All you must have is a good digital camera, plenty of memory cards or better a portable so you can download your card while continuing to take pictures.
You can reserve up to 3 books and ask for more as soon as you have finished with one.

Personally I have done more than 10,000 pages in 3 days with a Nikon D70 (with maybe 10 or 20 bad blurred pics) and 3 1G memory cards. I use a portable hard disk of 40 G that takes directly the content of the cards (plenty of space to accomodate pics in high res). It fits in your pocket so you don't have to carry an heavy portable.
After that I was so tired that it took me one week to recover. Smile

I had asked a quote for the price of the job done in photocopies at TNA and they came with more that 4,000 pounds so my trip was very cost effective.
Anothere advantage of digital pics is that you can "bind" them in a pdf file and have a complete "book".
I am still working on the material I took the last time I was at TNA 2 years ago.

You can even make the trip more interesting if you go at Greenwich, see the Victory and museum at Portsmouth etc.
Don't have any hope working quicly at the library in Greenwich: they don't allow you even to take a photocopy even more a pic. You have to copy stuff by hand or type it on your portable. It's a real shame!

At Portsmouth you have to take an appointment to go to the library but they are very helpful and let you copy or take pics.

There is also a very interesting Marines' museum and library near Portsmouth but I have no experience there.

@+P
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Martinwill2



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Post Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Patrick:

The Dreadnought Muster Book contains 105 A3 pages, copied single-sided, and weighs 3lb 4oz with the A3 envelope they were mailed in plus two thick cardboard sheets for protection. It covers three months. The total cost was around GBP 50 including shipping. On that basis, I agree that your cost for 10,000 pages would be up there around GBP 4,000 (plus shipping). However, my round trip travel and expenses from Utah would considerably exceed GBP 50!

A research charge on the order of GBP 40 per hour, with probably two hours minimum, would have cost me more than buying the whole book, with the advantage thay I have the whole book and don't need to research it again. The image quality was excellent and there are very few unreadable areas on them.

The Weazle was a 16 gun sloop, compared with Dreadnought, 98 guns, and the number of men would be far less than the 753 aboard Dreadnought (at least that figure is what I remember). This means that eight Weazle muster books covering two years would be around GBP80 altogether, and I only need those for one year.

So my take is that it would probably cost more to travel or to hire a researcher than to buy the four muster books covering 1778.

BTW, I visited Portsmouth in 1961 and toured the Victory then; later, on a trip in 1991 my wife and I did the Victory tour and also the Museum, which was quite fascinating and well worth the time. I also bought my copy of The Trafalgar Roll there. We took another hour or two to visit the Portsmouth Record Office and search about a year of baptism records in 1880, but that was fruitless. Later, another researcher in the area checked through 1890 and did not find the person I was looking for. Although we have visited Greenwich we haven't been to the NMM there, and we haven't searched at Kew either. So there is still plenty to do!

Regards
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chasbaz



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Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Research Reply with quote

I'm sorry for diverting a topic that probably should have been in "Hints and Tips for Researchers", but that information is very useful and I'm very grateful for the advice, and for the copy of a muster roll. I guess I could order 10 pages of one of these for L8.50 on the digital Gold service and see what I get. I happen to think that's a good deal. Getting one of these for each of the ships concerned on the date when my ggggfr joined them will be a good start.

Best wishes,
Charles
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tonybb



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience of using the Digital Express service (Gold or Platinum) for pages from ships musters is mixed. Sometimes they have found and copied the relevant pages for me, and sometimes they have not. The Digital Express service does not provide any research time, so unless they can find the man's name in the first few minutes they are unable to complete the request. However, I have never been charged the fee when they have failed to provide copies, and the service may well be worth trying for smaller ships where there are fewer names to search. I have a feeling they may possibly have tightened up on the time they are prepared to spend looking.

For documents such as ships logbooks where you want the entries for specific dates as opposed to the whole book, the service is ideal.

Martin, thanks for replying to my PM in your earlier post.
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chasbaz



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:55 pm    Post subject: Research Reply with quote

Hi Tony,

The first ship on which my ggggfr sailed as a 14-year old was the Impetueux(74) under Capt John Willett Payne. I just downloaded 10 pages of the captain's log and the first 10 pages of the muster roll for October 1796 by Digital Express. The service was excellent for this.
The Captain's log is wonderfully penned and has extraordinary detail, so I'm going to have a lot of fun (and work) transcribing this!

The muster roll is also very good, but the 10 pages only gets me as far as crew member 180, and since the complement was 671 I guess I'm going to have to order three more lots if I expect to see my ggggfr's name.

BTW, there seem to be about 10 'Widow's Men' listed - what are they?

Regards,
Charles
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Widows men" was a typically British accounting loop: they were ghost-ratings who drew the wages of an AB and the value of his ration.
They accounted for one per 100 men of the crew when the RN total complement was under 20,000 and for two per 100 when the complement exceeded that number.
That money was used to finance a fund for the relief of poor widows of commission and warrant officers of the RN.

For a long time they were entered with a ficticious name. Later simply as "widows men".

A strange custom but well in line with the way in the RN all accounts were related to a ship. Even today I think naval bases are named HMS something.
Nobody could have a commission or a warrant that was not for a specific ship. For example the Lts in charge of the signal and telegraph stations on land were borne on the book of a ship.

@+ P
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Post Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: RE: Widows' men Reply with quote

Thanks for that explanation, Patrick. The Dreadnought had six Widows Men, listed on page 00007-8 of the Muster Book, entries 6-11. All shown as AB, none have birthplace, age and tickets column entries. The following sheet 00008 shows ticks in the muster columns where all else are abcdefghiklmn across the 13 muster columns. Further down the double page is the first fatality - Richd. White, of Lavistock, 20, killed in action 21st Octr. 1805, having joined the ship on 18th May 1805. I assume the ticks were a way of stating that the Widows Men did not answer to the musters, but were checked off as present, whereas Richd. White was present for the first two, then a line was drawn through all the remaining columns.
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