Link to the related website that has useful info: the Age of Nelson.

This forum is devoted to the Royal Navy during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1793 - 1815).
And why not the other navies of the period?
To avoid spam, you must register to be able to post - it's free.

FAQ         Register         Profile         Search         Log in to check your private messages         Log in
Naval Medals
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ageofnelson.org Forum Index -> Age of Nelson
 
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
PMarione
Site Admin


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 883

Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Naval Medals Reply with quote

A query from R.W. Astle who had a great-great grandfather aboard the Victory for 21 Oct 1805.
Quote:
Of the 140 some men that requested the "clasp" by mail, do you know where and if the letters are kept requesting them?


Alex?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tonybb



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 13
Location: UK

Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to an article by John Hayward, after the information was transferred to the 'Clasp Claimants Lists', "all the application letters except for one, all the Application Receipt books and all the 'copper-plate' written rolls prepared for Royal Mint use, which were almost certainly the most accurate and most complete records made, were weeded and destroyed". Three volumes of these 'Clasp Claimants Lists' were transferred to the PRO (National Archives) in the 1960s (a fourth was lost).

ADM 171/1 at the National Archives is the medal roll for the NAVAL GENERAL SERVICE MEDAL 1793-1840.
_________________
Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
alexlitandem



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 129

Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony has already summarised the most important fact.

But, I'd like to know more about the original query and the source of the number / reference `140'.

I have Message's NGS medal roll and Douglas-Morris's earlier Medal Roll here and would be pleased to look up anything as required.

I see no Astle listed. Was that the name of the g-g-g or not?

Medal experts here , such as Peter Weedon, and the guys at the British Medal Forum, would all be keen to help add information as requested.

(As it happens, John Hayward was one of the experts who authenticated the Trafalgar NGS that I have the joy of looking after... and he is a most charming and helpful guy).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alexlitandem



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 129

Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All,

I received an email this morning from Robert (Astle) in the USA. Robert is the contributor here who believes that his ‘great-great-grandfather’ was on board HMS Victory at Trafalgar.

The central issue relates to the Naval General Service Medal.

There are, however, or so it seems to me, a number of really quite intriguing aspects to the story here, as outlined by Robert, that perhaps together, and together with friends from other Nelson sites, friends on the British Medal Forum etc., we might collectively be able to address / untangle, in part at least

I’d like, first, to simply reprise the key points of Robert’s own email to me and then at the end to record one or two personal observations for revision / modification / correction / discussion etc., by other posters here and / or elsewhere.

Robert wrote:

(QUOTE)

“I think that Joseph Astle was a solider and somehow happened to end
up on the HMS Victory, at least for the (period including) 21 Oct 1805.

He did not share in the "prize monies". I therefore, assume that this is because he was "not ship's company". I was in the U.S.Navy and that would work the same, even though we had no "prize monies". I do understand the use of the word, "ship's company".

He was born about 1776 in England and died the night of January 31\February 1 in 1855, in Warwick, Quebec, Canada and is buried there. The "time line" fits.

My mother tells of family lore that Joseph fought in the Battle of Corunna. Other family, unbeknownst to me, say that he had to "join" the army, "like something happened in his life, that we don't know about".

An "aide" at our Library of Congress, causally stated to my brother, that an Astle was involved in the secret burial of Sir John Moore at Corunna. How could (the "aide") have known that? How did (the "aide") then put the two names of Astle together. Then, how did (the "aide") a colonist, put Corunna, Moore and Astle together, because at that time, I think Astle would (have been) called Kelshaw?

Then, somehow, he ends up in Canada and elects to stay there and is married under the name of Joseph Astle on 14 September 1818 to Abigail Doying. He is my great-great grandfather.

Through the Church of the Latter Day Saints here in Florida, I am checking all the Regiments which were into and \ or took "disbandment" in Canada. There were 18 Regiments and this is doubled, because I have to look for both "Astle" and his ship name "Kelshaw".

I would like to know if his "clasp" was mailed to Canada and then, if so, where?

I would also would like, under the Freedom of Information Act
2000 UK, to receive a copy of the "one" saved "Application for the
Clasp".

Now, you have the whole thing. Can you help?


(END QUOTE)

A) Here’s a Very Important N.B. Robert additionally forwarded to me, in jpeg. Format, two related images, from the ADM 171/1 “Clasp List” for HMS Victory at Trafalgar.

B) The two images should be viewed side by side. They clearly record the application for the NGS by Joseph Astle (and clearly record him there, in the same hand, as being `alias James Kelshaw’)

C) The column entry headed `Quality or rating at time of Battle’ shows us the observation “Not Found” (for those not immediately familiar with entries in that ADM 171/1 document and unable to see the .jpeg I refer to, other entrants in that same column are noted, for example, as being, variously, `Ordnry’, `AB’, `LM’ etc.,

D) HOWEVER… whilst the above specific column entry might initially suggest that the Astle / Kelshaw applicant was of unknown / undetermined / unrecorded `rating’ status (as referenced by examination of Muster Books, Logs etc., as used by those actually screening applications for the NGS), it would surely be premature to read `Not found’ as a suggestion that the man was not in the Muster Book at all?

E) Please trust me, this gets more intriguing (I hope).

F) When one next looks `across the page’ in ADM 171/1, to read the adjacent details as recorded for the NGS applicant `Astle alias Kelshaw’, under those column entries headed `Notes from Ships Books’, Astle / Kelshaw is clearly “dittoed” as NOT being noted to have been `absent’ or to have `run’ at the time of Trafalgar.

G) Further, the reference number from the (now non-existent) Application List is also recorded.

H) But…

I) Interestingly, neither ASTLE nor KELSHAW are recorded as being in receipt of the NGS on either Kenneth Douglas-Morris’s NGS Medal Roll nor on the later Colin Message NGS medal Roll. ODD.

J) Nor does Astle / Kelshaw appear on the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll. Checked against Ships’ Muster Books. ODD.

K) I am waiting for other references (Clarke’s book, for example) to arrive here…

L) Issues: Was an NGS Medal issued to Astle / Kelshaw? How do we know?

M) What about the alleged Corunna connection?

N) BM Forum contact: Kevin Apslin, PXL : is this someone you could help with?

Can we help here?

Thanks; sorry it was a long post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PMarione
Site Admin


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 883

Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the page
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PMarione
Site Admin


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 883

Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After an email from the mouth of the horses (Pam and Derek Ayshford), various posts and emails from listers (Tony, Alex, Peter) maybe it's time to summarize the findings:
    1. the only indication of the presence of Joseph Astle (aka James Kelshaw) is the mention in ADM171 (see above)
    2. he can't be found in any of the most known lists of the people on board the Victory on 21 Oct 1805 (including the not found in ADM171): Commander Addis, David Clarke...
    3. Pam and Derek didn't find him after a careful examination of the Victory's muster books and other sources at TNA
    4. muster books were very carefully kept and included everybody on board including POW or supernumeraries like soldiers for rations accounting
    5. he is not recorded as receiving prize money whilst everybody on board was entitled (except POW and women)
    6. he is not recorded as being in receipt of the NGS on either Kenneth Douglas-Morris’s NGS Medal Roll nor on the later Colin Message NGS medal Roll
    7. no NGS medal seems to have survived
    8. I (and others) have never read of any regular army soldier on board at Trafalgar
    9. many seamen used aka for various reasons (one being to re-enter a different ship and fetch the bounty) but why a soldier?

At this point I vote not proved
As Peter says:
Quote:
There have been many fakers who said they were on the ship at Trafalgar, even admirals have been caught out.
and family lore is certainly not a reliable source if not supported by other proofs.
So either he was not on board or he was under another name and not as soldier.

A last point: I never heard of a secret burial of Sir John Moore.
According to the DNB:
Quote:
He (Moore) died shortly before 8 p.m. Moore wished to be buried where he died, not conveyed to England. Therefore, a grave was dug, within the landward bastion of the citadel, at midnight by soldiers of the 9th foot. At 8 a.m. on 17 January, to a background of gunfire, the chaplain to the brigade of guards, the Revd J. H. Symons, conducted the burial service, and Moore's body, wrapped in a military cloak and blanket, was laid to rest.

I don't see anything secret here.

@+P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
alexlitandem



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 129

Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.spink-online.com/resources/research_articles/john_hayward/jh3.asp

The Official Roll
The Naval Medal Committee was sent over 23,000 written applications for the medal with clasp/clasps and on receipt each veteran's name was arranged alphabetically with the nature of the claim and corroborative details. This data was then entered into the Application Receipt Book and number coded. All the information was then rearranged for inclusion into the 'Clasp Rolls', which recorded each single clasp of each claim under its own action heading together with the claimant's name, forenames, rank/rate and ship at time of action. The validity of each clasp claim was checked by the Committee and the relative entry on the 'Clasp List' was marked 'Yes' or 'No'. In the latter case, the reason, ie 'Ran', was sometimes given.

All the application letters except for one, all the Application Receipt books and all the 'copper-plate' written rolls prepared for Royal Mint use, which were almost certainly the most accurate and most complete records made, were weeded and destroyed.

End quote.

Where is the surviving claimant letter?

Call John Hayward... unless Kevin / Tony already knows?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alexlitandem



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 129

Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Hayward, ( as ever generous with his time as well as with his expertise and private archive material) was kind enough to do a little digging today and in two lengthy calls the key points are:

A) The surviving NGS application(s) letter(s) [ three or so, not just one, may have survived ] are in the NA. I don't yet have an archival reference.

B) None relate to Astle / Kelshaw [ from JH's memory ]

D) The Astle / Kelshaw connection is contained within the 1934 Newnham `Roll'. As applicant.

E) But not in the subsequent K D-M or Message `Rolls'.

Rolling Eyes

F) But.. well, if it was my man, I'd start with listening to Kevin and research ... properly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Peter



Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 105
Location: Gosport, Hampshire

Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Purchase Your Own Medal Reply with quote

Purchase your own Trafalgar Medal:

http://www.rnmuseumshop.co.uk/acatalog/Medals.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PMarione
Site Admin


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 883

Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At 4 pounds it's a bargain!
You can fetch a lot on ebay with one.
@+P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ageofnelson.org Forum Index -> Age of Nelson All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ   Search    Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Nun