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Ships associated with Portsmouth 1805?
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tmoffatt



Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 7

Post Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Ships associated with Portsmouth 1805? Reply with quote

Does anyone have the 1805 list of ships (or year near that) broken out by the associated home port? I am looking for the list for PORTSMOUTH, as it would assist in research on a Royal Marine in the Portsmouth Div., 74th Co. (enjoying the name Abel Helps, he signed up in 1798 and was discharged 1815).
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PMarione
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Post Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Steel's Navy List is probably the book to check.
It gives the list of the ships with their station.

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ionia



Joined: 08 Sep 2007
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Post Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was the Home Port system in operation in 1805?
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tmoffatt



Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Home Port - Portsmouth Reply with quote

I believe the Home Port system was very much in place by 1805. I live in Canada, but I am having a researcher at Kew looking at the embarkation book (1803-1814) for the Portsmouth Div. of Royal Marines ADM 185/62.

While I have not seen chapter and verse on the Home Port system at the time, I strongly believe the system worked that way for all sorts of reasons - not least because of keeping track of both equipment and personnel.
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the Home Port system ?

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tmoffatt



Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:39 pm    Post subject: Home Port System Reply with quote

The Home Port System was simple - each of the ships in the Royal Navy that could at some point be in Britain was designated to have a Home Port - Plymouth, Portsmouth and Chatham - and later Woolwich (I believe).

When dealing with Royal Marines - each individual marine was in a company - and companies were designated for a particular home port. For example, I am researching a ABEL HELPS in the 74th Co. - Normally he would always be serving on one of the ships associated with the Portsmouth home port.
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tmoffatt



Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Link to Home Port for Royal Marines Reply with quote

The Royal Marines Museum has a one-page doc with the home port of each of their companies:

http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/museumresearch/PDFs/Royal%20Marine%20Division%20Companies%201776%20-%201860.pdf
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Langstone



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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Location: England

Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The marines were assigned to Plymouth, Portsmouth etc, but surely not the Royal Navy ships themselves? Did the warships really have home ports? I wasn't aware of this, but am happy to learn more.
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PMarione
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, ships were assigned a station not a home port.
But maybe I'm wrong
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ionia



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Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than "home ports", the Marines were divided into three Grand Divisions in barracks at Chatham, Portsmouth and Plymouth. This arrangement grew out of the nescessity to provide protection to the dockyards.

I remain doubtful wether the RN had "home ports" in the latter sense of the word, before 1897 when seamen were allowed to nominate their choice of the three ports and to domicile their families there. It was only after this that ships came to be referred to as "Devonport ships" etc.

At the time of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, ships could refit and be re-commissioned at any of the Royal Dockyards. As an example, the VANGUARD 74 was initially commissioned and fitted out at Portsmouth. She was subsequently paid off and recommissioned there (1791-1793), paid off and recommissioned at Chatham (1798), paid off and recommissioned at Portsmouth (1801), paid off and recommissioned at Plymouth (1807) and paid off and fitted as a prison ship at Plymouth in 1812.

I would be interested to hear alternative views.
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Keith_H



Joined: 18 Oct 2009
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TMoffatt,

Like you, I am researching a marine ancestor. I'm finding the process of researching his history to be a lengthy process, and the poor documentation of the Marine shore Effective & Subsistence lists means that a lot of time is wasted at Kew requesting irrelevant document sets.

My first recommendation would be to consult the description book, as this will state the Companies in which your ancestor served. (This was of no use to me, as my ancestor was on HMS Spartiate from 19 March 1803 to 30 November 1811, and the Plymouth Division embarkation roll is from May 1803 to 1806).

The ships pay books will be of particular use to determine the dates of joining and leaving a ship. Thereafter, the shore Effective & Subsistence lists will indicate the prior ship, and the subsequent ship. The first place to look is the list for the relevant company number, and quarter. This is of no use if your ancestor was not disembarked at their home port. When my ancestor disembarked from Spartiate, he was disembarked at Portsmouth. Thus, he appears in the Q4 1809 list of Plymouth men being subsisted at Portsmouth.

Hope this is of interest; if you send me a private PM I have something to send you.

Thanks, Keith
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Keith_H



Joined: 18 Oct 2009
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TMoffatt,

I did a search on this very website for HELPS, and came across the following on the Ayshford list:

HELPS Thomas Private R.M. Winchester, Hants

I see that this person also applied to enter Greenwich as an in-Pensioner in 1845.


http://www.britishmedals.us/files/greenwichpr.htm


Thomas was a Naval General Service Medal holder, for service on HMS Revenge
His entry number to Greenwich was 8599. (Source ADM 73/94)

Is this the same person?
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Keith_H



Joined: 18 Oct 2009
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are lucky, the service history for Thomas Helps will have survived, and will be in ADM 73/12. Service records for in-Pensioner applications were prepared.

Otherwise, you have a long trawl alternating between shore Subsistence lists and Ship Pay Books.

I cannot recommend highly enough the genealogy books on Marines by Matthew Little, and Pappalardo's Naval Ancestors books which explains the Admiralty's record keeping activites.

Good Luck
Keith
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tmoffatt



Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 7

Post Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Abel Helps and Thomas Helps have no known relationship Reply with quote

Hello -

Thanks for bringing to my attention Thomas Helps - but had already checked. To the best of my knowledge there is no connection to Abel Helps who emigrated to Ontario (Canada) when he was 51 years of age, along with his wife Mary Franklin (age 39) and 5 or more children.
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Keith_H



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Post Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Langstone wrote:
The marines were assigned to Plymouth, Portsmouth etc...


The Effective & Subsistence lists for the Marines towards the end of the Napoleonic Wars do seem to imply that the Marines would only board ships that shared the same home port as their Division.

I do recall reading that at the turn of the 18th Century, there was a shortage of Marines, with some infantry regiments being used to fill the breach. The most famous example being the 95th and their involvement in the battle of Copenhagen

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Marines/c_marines.html

It appears to me that in the early years of the conflict, the same rigidity of, say, Plymouth Division Marines solely on Plymouth Home Port ships did not exist. If there were available manpower, it seems they would be boarded on a ship if needed.

The mystery that I have encountered is that my ancestor was an agricultural labourer from a small village south of Cambridge, and seems most likely to have enlisted at the Cambridge depot. Notwithstanding this, he ended up in Plymouth companies. Two contemporaries of his, who joined a few years later and were from the same village, spent their time in Chatham companies. This makes sense, given that Cambridge was in the catchment area for Chatham.

Last Saturday, whilst consulting the last three remaining Embarkation Debt lists (for ships beginning with A, G & L respectively), I was surprised to see lists of one or more men of a given Division embarking ships. I had not come across the mixing of Divisions' marines. The Plymouth and Portsmouth Divisions have Embarkation Books commencing in 1803, so perhaps the manpower shortages had been addressed by this time?
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